Charles Krafft Responds


Friday, March 15, 2013

Two weeks ago in Studio 360, we talked about the Seattle-based artist Charles Krafft. Krafft is a painter and sculptor whose work is both provocative and respected; it has been collected by major museums and prominently reviewed, and Krafft has received grants from the National Endowment for the Arts and the Soros Foundation. Some of his provocation has consisted of imagery of dictators, notably Hitler, and swastikas in various contexts. That imagery was used ironically, the artist said, and he was praised for it in the art world and the media.

But earlier this year, a reporter for the Seattle Stranger discovered that Charles Krafft was not just an ironic provocateur. Her article revealed that during the last decade, he had also become a Holocaust denier. Admirers of Krafft’s art are left wondering whether the use of swastikas and Hitler was a form of surreptitious propaganda for hate. Krafft maintains that what was intended as ironic then remains ironic now.

“I knew that these were hot symbols,” he tells Kurt Andersen. “I’d been working with this group, Neue Slowenische Kunst, a Slovenian collective, and they were mixing tropes that included Nazi symbols. That’s kind of where I got infected with this idea, where I began to think about using them myself ... Prior to that, I was apolitical,” he asserts. “I was using these symbols before I was a Holocaust denier. I wasn’t even interested in the Holocaust, really.”

Krafft asserts that he is not a racist or a Nazi, but a “revisionist” whose ideas are based in history. “I just don’t buy this thing about ‘2,000 people a day being gassed at Auschwitz,'” Krafft claims; “it doesn’t add up to me technologically."

Kurt asks about one particularly charged work, a teapot in the shape of Hitler’s head. “I think he’s been demonized excessively,” Krafft says. “I’m not trying to resurrect National Socialism or Hitlerism, but my opinion of the man has changed considerably since I began my revisionist investigations, so the teapot started out ironical and still stays ironical. Because for God’s sake, if you look at that thing, it’s goofy. And I don’t understand why people now think that this is some sort of an attempt to slip my evil neo-Nazi ideology into the homes, museums, and galleries of the unsuspecting.”

Krafft’s public embrace of Holocaust denial is likely to wreck his career as a respected artist — his works were recently withdrawn from an exhibition in France — though he may garner fans among extremists. “The thing about being a Holocaust denier,” Krafft says, “when they throw that word around at you, it’s not good socially, so I’m having a little bit of a tough time dealing with old friends that are suddenly distancing themselves from me. But I don’t have any regrets for making the art that I did or for my intellectual curiosity, which led me to this opinion that I have, that I’m holding right now. And I’m saying it’s not forever. I mean, I could change my mind about it.”

Kurt wonders frankly if the change in Krafft’s outlook may have resulted from mental difficulty of some kind. “Nobody’s said I’m crazy, although somebody wrote that I might be getting senile. Do you think I need some sort of psychiatric help?” Krafft asks. “If I find a psychiatrist that can help me, Kurt, I’ll get back to you and let you know when I’m well.”


Interviewing a Holocaust denier (Charles Krafft prefers the term "skeptic," but he also refers to himself in the interview as a "denier") is a delicate piece of broadcasting. Many listeners who commented below find it inappropriate that we gave him any airtime at all, while others take us to task for not debating Krafft's interpretation of the literature he has read. We interviewed Krafft not as a spokesperson for that viewpoint, but as a major artist whose work has used imagery that, given his new beliefs, seems to take on a vastly different meaning. We felt obligated to explore how those beliefs should affect our understanding of his body of work.

We've been heartened to see the vigorous debate among our readers/listeners below. Thank you to everyone who has contributed thoughtful comments to the conversation, and continues to do so.

A note from Kurt:

Thank you all for listening and taking the time to comment. 

One point I'd like to add to what my Studio 360 colleagues have posted here is the fact that I spoke with Charles Krafft for more than 40 minutes, of which we broadcast 7 minutes. Which is to say, he provided and we recorded his "side of the story" at length. But our interest and intention was not to air a debate with a non-scholar about the well-established facts of the Holocaust, but rather to provide a sense of Mr. Krafft's state of mind and personality, and (given the cultural focus of this show) how his artistic practice, which included Nazi iconography, led him to his peculiar beliefs in late middle age.

And to the commenter who asks if I would similarly question the mental states of fervent "birthers" and believers in extraterrestrial visitations: yes, I would. In fact, in one part of my conversation with Mr. Krafft that we didn't air I compared Holocaust denialism to a belief that the earth is flat, and said that geophysicists holding such opinions are excluded from serious discourse and denied jobs in the academy; he agreed the analogy was apt.


Charles Krafft

Comments [122]

Al nelson

Most folks would view Kraft's holocaust denial as nuts, including me. However, the interviewer did a poor job as the interviewer. He lost his objectivity and became an editorialist. When the interviewer commented "I'm glad." in response to Kraft's allowance that his mind could be changed had no place in an objective interview. Leave the editorial comments to yourself, this wasn't about you, Kurt. Let us judge for ourselves.

Mar. 21 2013 09:39 AM

One conclusion we can draw from this thread is that many of those who accept the holocaust industry narrative have never read any of the literature questioning it, or they would not misrepresent it in such silly ways. As if Carlo Mattogno, author of Auschwitz: the Case for Sanity (2010) didn't think Auschwitz KL existed or hadn't studied cyanide chemistry, for example.

Mar. 21 2013 05:56 AM

I stopped listening to this interview after 5 minutes. I couldn't stomach the attitude he posed. A quarter of my relatives were murdered in The Holocaust. I find it so unspeakable to even have a view of such a monumental period of time. To deny reality, in this age of media even in the 30s and 40s is beyond understanding. To forget the past is to let it happen again. NEVER AGAIN!

Mar. 20 2013 11:34 PM
Paul Simons from Philadelphia PA

I would add that if this individual believes that the holocaust could not have been carried out perhaps he wouldn't mind demonstrating the veracity of his analysis by having his family, belongings, and clothes stripped from him and spending some time in a sealed enclosure breathing the wonderfully fragrant zyklon b gas and then perhaps enjoy being transformed into ashes in one of the ovens that are still there at auschwitz which, sorry to have to tell you mr. krafft, is a very real place, you can visit it at your convenience.

Mar. 20 2013 10:15 PM

Krafft comes across to me on the whole as a reasonable person with whom one might have an exchange of views about subjects other than those in which he is a scholar. However, Kurt states that he will not interview a non-scholar about the "well established facts" of the holocaust. Krafft's art is informed by his familiarity with other aspects of general culture in which he is probably not expert. Would Kurt refuse to cover any aspects of culture in which an artist was not a scholar in an interview? This position of not interviewing a non-scholar strikes me as disingenuous, as in general highly respected scholars such as Robert Faurisson are also not interviewed, hence the "establishment" view of the holocaust with its vilification of the German people goes unchallenged in mainstream culture.

Mar. 20 2013 03:42 PM
VGledhill from Philadelphia Area

I was surprised at Kurt's condesending and insulting attitude toward the artist. The artist was honest enough to say his opinion may change again which is what artists do by exploring images and thoughts together and bravely putting it out there for others perception....
Kurt get to a museum.

Mar. 20 2013 03:36 PM

Unpopular thoughts are often marginalized today, mainstream tomorrow.


Mar. 20 2013 03:20 PM

For those readers open to facts and able to overcome decades of propaganda, the Red Cross report released after the war, stated that up to 300,000 registered inmates (of all nationalities) perished in German-controlled work camps. Most of these deaths occurred in the last months of the war as a result of allied bombing causing food and supply lines to be destroyed.

The Red Cross had complete freedom to visit all camps controlled by the Germans throughout the war and delivered hundreds of thousands of parcels and letters to inmates.

Also the death toll at Auschwitz was quietly but dramatically reduced in the 1990s from 4 million to a little more than 1 million (and continues to drop). But what's a 3 million reduction when you control Hollywood and the mass media in general? Nothing.

It is these sort of facts that have no doubt aroused Kraffts interest in the 'holocaust' that is now causing the 'art world' to scream heretic and start turning the thumbscrews.

Mar. 20 2013 06:43 AM
{Paul Simons from Philly

This, by his own statements, isn't the first time this fool has embraced nazi themes. He's just gone farther and joined the likes of mkahmoud amedinejad in Holocaust denial and praise of hitler. In Germany today he would be in violation of the law - the Germans themselves recognize the enormity of the crime and have dealt with it, incidentally far better than some other countries with their own crimes. Kurt, you missed an opportunity, when krafft said he was open to evidence that he is wrong, to inform the idiot that the evidence is there, in piles of shoes, rooms full of human hair, meticulous, and testimony at Nuremburg and other places.

Mar. 20 2013 05:16 AM
Pflieg from Texas

Interesting news piece. Generally, I dismiss people that are labeled as 'holocaust deniers' as racist or extremists, unworthy of an interview. I also, generally, lean left. But hearing this report, I'm left wondering. I did NOT like the objectivity & completeness of this news piece. I don't know all of the historical facts (just what the media and history books tell me) & I usually believe the media's opinion on this point and am extremely moved by movies like Schindler's List and the many other movies that cover aspects of the Holocaust. Unfortunately, Kurt did not clear this issue up for me at all, which honestly leaves me frustrated ... and wanting. I usually like Kurt's interviewing style and knowledge of the facts. However, he seemed miffed by Mr. Krafft's views and kind of faltered, suggested he see a psychiatrist & didn't really enlighten me about anything. Very disappointing.

I don't know much about Mr. Krafft, and perhaps he is a real wacko worthy of being ostracized for his views ... but he sounded quite sane during the interview. He didn't deny that the Holocaust happened, just the number of people killed. Kurt didn't pick apart any of his arguments in the way that I expected, and it left me wondering if the numbers of people killed during the holocaust are accurate or not. I humbly ask the question, and more knowledgeable people probably know the answer (please don't flame me for just asking an honest question) - do we really know how many people have been (horribly) killed during the holocaust. There is no excuse for the terrible genocide that occurred during the holocaust. I believe it happened & that it is a horrendous part of our human history. However ... and I don't want to split hairs or anything ... but I think it is unfair to label someone as a 'denier' simply because they question the numbers, especially given the fact that he seems willing to be convinced otherwise. The interview didn't seem to highlight anything more than that issue & the connection to his previous work that used Nazi symbolism (which seemed like a different issue in the interview). Why is Mr. Krafft labeled a "denier"? He seems more like a questioner, a free thinker, certainly an eccentric artist ... anyway, I think our society should openly accept someone like this, consider their views, and either (respectfully) convince him of his error or entertain his ideas. Just my 2 cents.

Mar. 20 2013 12:21 AM

I admire Charles Krafft for standing up to those who would like to bully him into submission.

The Holocaust has been described by one Revisionist as the hoax of the 20th century. After researching the issue myself I've also moved from being a believer into being what is commonly known as a 'Holocaust Denier'.

For the record, mainstream Deniers or Revisionists do not deny that there were concentration camps or that Jews and other died in them. But, they do not accept three crucial claims: (1) there was a deliberate plan by the Germans to exterminate the Jews, (2) that six million jews died (or anything remotely close to that), (3) that the Germans used poison gas to kill jews.

The idea that Krafft is mentally ill in some form for not accepting dogma that society has been brainwashed into is just blaming the messenger. People, please study the issue yourselves instead of relying on Hollywood and the History channel.

Thank you Charles Krafft for your courage and willingness to challenge this massive fraud. There will come a day when we will be vindicated.

Mar. 19 2013 08:56 PM
Eric Hamell from Philadelphia

Especially given the role of the Slovenian collective -- along with his period of self-imposed isolation -- this is likely not so much about mental illness as social influence. Most psychiatrists know little about this; he might find it more useful talking with a thought reform consultant/exit counselor, or a psychologist who specializes in cult-related issues. He may find one close to him by consulting the International Cultic Studies Association at

Mar. 19 2013 08:17 PM
Stacey from Baltimore

So WHAT? I mean really... last time I checked we had FREEDOM of speech and expression here. It's what makes this country great. You're FREE to NOT LIKE what someone believes or says, but to deny their right to express their opinion is fundamentally UNAMERICAN. You don't like his art? Don't buy it... You can also not go to museums where it's featured, or listen to radio stations that promote him.

Some of the greatest artists of our time were controversial. Krafft has some compelling work, end of story.

Mar. 19 2013 06:38 PM
Bob W from Trenton, NJ

Actually Krafft's "epiphany" doesn't really surprise me. A midlife-holocaust denial-crisis strikes me as following the same rough contours of "discovery" that previously apolitical and ill-informed people experience when they examine other complex "theories" in popular culture. I imagine that for Krafft, the assumed reality of the Holocaust was something that he just took for granted for most of his life, never really giving it much thought one way or the other, until he confronted a particularly charismatic or well-written critique (i.e.: David Irving's work). This new discovery strikes a chord for several reasons . . . maybe because he, like many other Americans, have fetishized the Nazi war machine for decades after the war . . . maybe also because Krafft, again like many other Americans, is particularly enthralled by conspiracy theory literature. Either way, regardless of the particular impetus and catalyst, Krafft has become a neophyte believer (note in the interview he proclaims that he is open to having his opinion changed), someone who feels possessed of the "secret knowledge" of the event, but who also is rooted enough in the real to recognize the consequences of his new belief system.

Its all quite sad really. Personally I've had friends and family members -- all middle age white males who share a sense of waning empowerment -- who've gone down this or similar routes. Were it in my power, I would take them (including Krafft) on a long travel study, visiting the different sites associated with the Holocaust. I would invite all three classes of remaining people -- victims, participants, and observers -- to share their recollections. The trick would, of course, be in allowing the primary voice and experience take the lead and resist the temptation to lecture. That's actually what such people want, the chance to test their new belief system and hone their skills in debate. Better instead to let the experience shape them on their own terms than to unintentionally strengthen their flawed belief system.

Mar. 19 2013 06:27 PM
Steven Rudin from Massapequa Park

I may be mistaken, but I think that none of the actual Nazis brought to trial in Nuremberg, and those found later and brought to trial, ever denied that the Holocaust happened. Their defense was either "I was just following orders," or, "you've got the wrong man."

Mar. 19 2013 11:42 AM
Steve Rudin from massapequa park, ny

Just look on the Internet and you will find an alternate universe in which the Holocaust never happened, JFK was shot by Lyndon Johnson, no one landed on the moon, 9 11 was an inside job, FDR knew about Pearl Harbor ahead of time, and Obama is a citizen of Kenya. Let's not leave out those who say they can prove the Earth is flat, not round, and those who believe dinosaurs and humans existed side by side,as portrayed in The Flintstones. I would love to know the psychology behind these alternate universe people. I have noticed that no amount of evidence to the contrary will ever sway the true believers.

Mar. 19 2013 09:41 AM
Glenn Dansker from Cambridge, MA

There are millions of talented artists creating meaningful work. I don't know why Studio 360 needs to give free publicity to those who are insultingly ignorant. If I hear one more story from a holocaust denier I will cancel my support for NPR.

Mar. 19 2013 04:25 AM

This story particularly upset me that I came home and created an account just to post my disappointment.

This was very unprofessional. Mr. Kraft's views may be rude, offensive, idiotic, what have you but he presented them with nothing but respect, humility, and candor. However the interviewer did a disgusting job of showing any such respect, humility, or candor. I was surprised Mr. Kraft was able to take such offensive and rude comments and continue on in a respectable civilized conversation. The lake of professionalism depicted by the interview downplayed Mr. Kraft's radical and ridiculous views.

My focus was completely shifted from the actual topic here which should have been Mr. Kraft's views. However I found myself checking to see that my radio was tuned to the right station as this is something I have never heard from WNYC. Perhaps I have not been listening long enough - a couple of years.

In my opinion I believe the interviewer truly owes Mr. Kraft an apologies for the blatant disrespect and insulting he received.

Not in any way do I think Mr. Kraft is right in his opinion. Yet it is his to have and I must respect that. I don't believe Mr. Kraft was being offensive in his presentation of his opinion. In fact I believed him to be afraid of offending people with his views and he seemed to choose his words carefully.

This interview has been the first ever disappointment with WNYC. It did not provide a truthful, unbiased, generally interested perspective that you can not find anywhere else as the pledge drives suggest. This interview could have been easily plucked from any biased talk-radio show out there. Nothing special.

Mar. 19 2013 02:15 AM
Steve from Teaneck

I support your intention in doing this interview. Interesting to see how even "artists" can be misguided. But you did a piss-poor job as interviewer. Why didn't you ask him what information his "research" uncovered that turned him into a Porto-Nazi. My guess is if he had grown up in NYC he would have known many actual survivors and that might have made a difference. Then again, probably not.

Mar. 18 2013 09:18 PM
Craig from France

Well, that was a painful interview. Art is subjective and there are a lot of other artists out there who aren't deluded and providing racists/Nazi's with poster material. Hope this guy fades away into oblivion.

Mar. 18 2013 08:22 PM
mer from CT

Tell him to call to speak with Auschwitz survivor Elly Gross or visit the Holocaust memorial in Washington D.C.

Mar. 18 2013 08:20 PM
Serena from UpperWestside

Both sides of my family were wiped out in the Holocaust. There is no irony or satire in what this creep does and says. Why are you giving him airtime? Nothing constructive in this. I question your motives in doing this piece.

Mar. 18 2013 08:16 PM
Dummy from NJ

This interview might serve as an example of why people in the arts should never talk about anything serious. Ignorance on all sides.
When Jenny Mccarthy talks about how the university of google showed her that her son's autism came from vaccinations, is "you need a psychiatrist" all there is to say in response? How about when somebody insists that there still could be undiscovered WMD in Iraq?
I remember being on a web forum on which someone was posting links to revisionist sites. Guess what: if you read them, they can completely suck you in and have you questioning what you knew before, and it's up to you to find additional sources or arguments that will set your head straight again. Because it can be detailed, it can be well argued, it can be persuasive, starting with the fact that the first real denier was himself a former prisoner in two nazi camps. There ARE logistical questions, as the interviewee put it. All kinds of things have been either revised or disagreed on by legitimate historians, including the Jewish body count, although only slightly (closer to five million now).
Instead of Anderson's cowardly distancing of himself and pious diagnosing of his confused former forst hermit guest, the more genuinely compassionate or concerned thing to do would be look into hooking Krafft up with someone equipped to walking him through the evidence and the most important arguments: eye witness accounts, the data behind the total tallies of the dead, the millions who can name lost relatives, the fact of women, children, and elderly being liquidated, and the question of how many dead would there have to be for Krafft to agree that a genocide had occurred. And of course, NOT in public/on the air. But there was a show to make.
How about you folks give this^ a shot and bring the guy back in the future, giving him room to say he feels stupid, he was mislead, he knows his facts now.
Americans are often quite ignorant. They know very little about things going on far away or not so far away at the hands of their own government, now or in the recent past. They know very little about things NOT perpetrated by their own government, including WWII losses or atrocities that do not qualify as part of the Holocaust. Give this guy a pass -- he is JUST JENNY MCCARTHY. And since you know how to reach him on the phone, offer him some real help.

Mar. 18 2013 07:42 PM
gary from PA

Kurt, I really enjoyed the interview but didn't care for your closing. I didn't think anything needed to be said, it spoke for itself.
In reading some of the comments others have posted, I can't help but asked if everyone heard when Kraft said he thought Hitler was demonized. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. The mass of humanity who's lives were changed forever or killed outright in Hitler's quest for domination. Hitlers picture could be right there in the dictionary next to word.

Mar. 18 2013 07:31 PM
Hawk from LA

Anderson asks us at the end of the interview to say what we think. So what do I think? Two things:

1) I think editing down a 40 min interview to 7 mins is probably being very unfair to a person who is the subject of a very real, literal, political witch hunt. Anderson acts like he has some trace of sympathy for the guy (with his obnoxious "seek psychiatric help" comment) but he clearly doesn't have enough sympathy to let ALL of what Krafft had to say be heard. It would be easy enough to post the whole interview online for people to hear if broadcasting it in its entirety would have taken up too much time.

2) Anderson keeps saying, in effect, that "people can't look at Krafft's art the same - we just can't see it the same way" without really ever explaining why it can't be seen the same way or describing how he and people like him he seems to think he's speaking for now see Krafft's art.

It would be nice to hear some explanation from Anderson. How do you see Krafft's art now? Or are we all supposed to just know?

Mar. 18 2013 04:55 PM

Poor Charlie! His friends are distancing themselves because of his intellectual inquiries? He didn't mention it's also for things like a post on his Facebook page with a link to a video portraying President Obama in extremely offensive ways with a soundtrack chanting the N word over and over again.

Mar. 18 2013 02:34 PM
Tomas from Venezuela

Listening to this segment of the show reminded me of Salman Rushdie and The Satanic Verses. If the host would've been translated to Arabic, we'd probably see the bullying in a different light. The man has a POV and right or wrong, bullying him into silence will not help.

Mar. 18 2013 01:28 PM
Aaron from Beacon Hill

It is important for people like this to continue to attack Krafft and others like him because it distracts us all from the bigger picture. The bigger picture is the ongoing genocide against the palestinians, Iraqi's, Afghanis, and other Muslims across the middle east. If the media focuses on people we can attack for questioning the past, they can take our attention on what is happening in the present.
It doesn't matter that Mr. Krafft has been creating art for over 40 years, or that roughly 5% of that output has references to Nazi or fascist imagery.
It does not matter that he vacations among a billion brown-skinned pilgrims in India. It does not matter that he is prone to absorbing countless volumes of European history books in his "spare" time. It does not matter that he first questioned the holocaust numbers because he visited the camps in Romania.
None of that matters, because it is way more fun to create boogie men and scarecrows and keep people from thinking for themselves.
As for the interview above and people like Jen Graves: they need this to stay relevant in a rapidly changing world. In a few years nobody will take The Stranger or NPR with any grain of truth.

Mar. 18 2013 12:20 PM
Terry McKenna from Dover NJ

As someone old enough to remember when Eichmann was tried, and whose grandmother lived in an apartment house where her neighbor had been in a death camp, I didn't expect the host to react in any way other than the way he did. Whether the Nazis had the technology to gas 2000 per day or maybe half starved and 1/4 were shot, we knew that the Jews of Europe disappeared. They lived in large numbers throughout Eastern Europe and then they didn't.

Period. Mr. Krafft may be an artist, but he is also "crazy" in common parlance.

The host is not really an journalist anyway, he's a writer - so let's not expect that he had to keep to a journalist's standards. To be frank, the artist, once we know his sense that Hitler was wronged, should have been lucky to get air time.

Mar. 18 2013 08:05 AM
Scott Garside from Woodinville, WA

I'm very disappointed in this interview. Kurt Andersen, whose work I have always greatly respected, went way over the line of journalistic ethics when suggesting to Mr. Kraft during the interview that he needs psychiatric help. It only got worse when Kurt admitted that he knows nothing of the practice of psychiatry. The final nail in this piece was a 'diagnosis' of Mr. Kraft after the interview in post-production.

Studio 360 should take a lesson from 'This American Life' and the Mike Daisey's story about Apple in China. A full-hour mea culpa would be a start in recovering the allegiance of loyal listeners. This interview is not what we would expect from Kurt Andersen, his staff or his program.

Mar. 18 2013 06:30 AM

Whatever you do, don't interview Binjamin Wilkomirski.

Here's some interesting dialgue from Art Spiegelman's *Maus* (1991 Pantheon Books edition). From page 90:

Art: When did you first hear about Auschwitz?
Vladek (Spiegelman's father): Right away we heard ...
Vladek: Even from there - from that other world - people came back and told us. But we didn't believe.

From page 109, the following conversation takes place inside(!) a Jewish internment camp in 1943:

Persis: ... You've all heard the stories about Auschwitz. Horrible unbelievable stories.
Matka Zylberberg (Vladeks' mother-in-law): They can't be true!

Mar. 18 2013 01:52 AM
Cameron from Dallas

Your interview with Krafft was pathetic. When I heard your story last week, I wanted to know how people found out he was a Holocaust denier and why he was one. You asked just one question as to why. He gave a response. Then you spent the rest of the interview calling him crazy and suggesting he see a psychiatrist. This did nothing to educate the public. You merely took the opportunity to bully the guy who expressed an extremely unpopular opinion. How courageous of you!

If you're going to interview someone on an obviously controversial topic, take a step back and refrain from attacking your guest.

Mar. 17 2013 11:13 PM
David from Brooklyn

Anyone who turns disaster into beautiful plateware, and modern weapons into perfect china, is my kind of artist.

That said, my father was a Holocaust historian. The Destruction of the European Jews, Vol. III, Chapter Nine ("Killing Center Operations") answers some gassing-death questions for those with strong stomachs and no aversion to footnotes.

Snippets from the unabridged 3rd edition:

I am no expert, but my short response to Charles Krafft's question: If you have no figure for the capacity of a gas chamber to accept live bodies, you then look at the capacity of a crematorium to accept dead ones.

Mar. 17 2013 10:33 PM

Yes, Kraft is (technically) an artist, and profoundly deluded. Is there such a thing as juvenile detention for this sort of people?

Mar. 17 2013 10:20 PM
Richard pauli from Seattle

Thanks for this story. First discussion I have heard with a Holocaust denier... Interesting.

Don't you think he is less of a wack-job than the climate change deniers?

Isn't global warming a far more important issue than local art?

Global warming denialism obstructs public safety. Historical denialism is really just listening to a tragic fool - as you said

Mar. 17 2013 10:16 PM

Based on what I heard today on a Kurt Andersen show and comments I saw, I can now say that the public understanding of the Holocaust boils down to just one number, 6 million Jews. Mr. Krafft does not believe that it was technologically possible to murder on average 2,000 people a day in hundreds of death camps, as well as by special military units in thousands of towns and villages spread across the Central and Eastern Europe. And Mr. Andersen did not challenge this "understanding" of the Holocaust. But the catastrophe was that being a Jew in Europe meant the death sentence! The large number of the killed was the result of it. What if tomorrow we learn that it was 5 or 5.5 millions of Jews killed? Or let say, 4 million? The Holocaust will be "downgraded" to a massacre? And the Holocaust deniers will be happy? The Holocaust was a result of racist ideology, anti-Semitism, and intolence. Nazis organized the mass killings, and entire Europe participated, mostly willingly, in it. The Holocaust is not just the number supported by technical analysis! Mr. Andersen and NPR had a low point today.

Mar. 17 2013 10:04 PM
stibbbs from texas

A mediocre mind in search of an audience.

Mar. 17 2013 10:00 PM
Sandy Schuman from West Palm Beach

I'm with the people who don't want to judge art by the beliefs of the artist....ESPECIALLY when those beliefs came AFTER the pieces were created.

It took awhile for Israel to play Mahler, but they finally did. Thomas Jefferson worked to prevent slavery from being banned in the new United States, and even to be DISCUSSED for 20 years! Do we therefore turn away from the beauty of the opening lines of the Declaration of Independence? Lincoln said that if keeping slavery would preserve the nation, then he would keep slavery. Are we to erase the Gettysburg address from history books?

Kraft made perfect sense when he defended his original intent with the art pieces. Shock. Provocation. For years, no one imagined that they were subtle attempts to indoctrinate people into holocaust denial. And indeed, they were not. Kraft had no such thoughts at the time. It's paint on canvas!! It hasn't changed!!! Kraft's subsequent belief system adds an anecdotal post note, but shouldn't damn it.

Mar. 17 2013 09:43 PM
Greg Barton from Richardson, TX

Thanks much for doing and airing this interview. The irrationality of holocaust denial needs to be exposed when it rears it's ugly (yet profoundly silly) head. The reasoning behind constantly questioning the "historical consensus," while sound at it's base, is easily brought to absurd levels by the kneejerk skeptical mind. One might as well question the historical consensus that the sun rose this morning.

I think you were well within the bounds to suggest to Krafft seek psychological help, though I doubt he will.

Mar. 17 2013 08:37 PM
Steve Constance

The problem here is that the Holocaust evokes very strong emotions in some people. However, the Holocaust is a period of history and deserves to be treated as any other period of history. Questioning aspects of any period of history isn't tantamount to "denying" it. James Kennedy has written books sympathetic to the Confederate States. Does that make him a "slavery denier?" Some people believe FDR knew in advance that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor and did nothing to prevent it. Are those people World War II deniers? Are they even Pearl Harbor deniers?

No. Of course not. Charles Krafft doesn't deny the Holocaust. He questions aspects of it. He expresses doubt that 2000 people were killed at a time in a gas chamber. After the war, it was said that the gas chambers at Auschwitz could kill 2000 people at once. At the same time, it was estimated that a total of between 4 and 4.5 million people were murdered at Auschwitz. In 1989 the Auschwitz death toll was officially revised to the current 1.1 million. Could not the death toll in individual gas chambers also be revised downward? Especially when it has never been explained, technologically, how 2000 people were gassed.

It's been claimed that an average of three people per square foot were crammed into the gas chambers at Belzec. It's been said that an average of 27 bodies per cubic meter were buried in the mass graves at Treblinka. Do these seem like reasonable numbers to you? If you're skeptical that three people can fit into one square foot, does that mean you're claiming that nothing bad happened to the Jews during World War II?

At the Nuremberg Trial, evidence was presented that Jews were murdered in gas chambers at Auschwitz, in steam chambers at Treblinka, and with an electric floor at Belzec. Nobody talks about steam chambers or electric floors any more. Even the claims that Nazis made soap out of the body of Jews is now dismissed as atrocity propaganda.

Charles Krafft is merely asking uncomfortable questions. Before you demonize him, please read up on the history of the Holocaust so you know exactly what he is questioning. And before you call somebody a Holocaust Denier, please understand the difference between 'it didn't happen' and 'some of it didn't happen.'

Mar. 17 2013 08:32 PM

I am profoundly disappointed in your decision to air this interview. Mr. Kraft is a neonazi - previously hiding his art and ideas behind the veil of "irony" and now out in the open. Shame on him and you fr allowing this nonsense to go unchallenged. I could wish he had a brain tumor or early onset dementia but his long history of using nazi iconography causes me to suspect it is a more insidious disease, antisemitism.

Mar. 17 2013 08:22 PM
Elbert from Dallas, TX

There were literally hundreds of death camps, starvation barracks, roundups of Jews and Gypsies who were machine-gunned. The Germans were very efficient. How do you account for the fact that Poland had a pre-war population of over 3 million Jews. In 1945 after the war, barely 200,000 survived, most in the camps. Read any almanac in 1939, world Jewish population was 18 million, today, between 13 and 14 million, tops 15 million, almost evenly split between the Western Hemisphere and Israel, with perhaps one-and-a-half million combined in France, U.K., Germany, Russia and South Africa. No, Mr. Krafft, it happened and Hitler said it, the butcher, if Germany went to war, "it will be the Jews that will suffer." Add 20 million Russians, 15% of the Greek population and more wherever the German army set foot. Hitler was a demon. Ask any soldier who served in Europe in WWII. There are libraries full of books and documentation of the Holocaust, and not all by "Jewish authorities."

Mar. 17 2013 07:33 PM
Steffi A Karp from Waban, MA

Why on earth give air time to a denier of the Holocaust who doesn't have any idea what it means. HAS he been to camps? HAS he met people like Father DesBois who is still researching the Holocaust by Bullet throughout eastern Europe? HAS he ever met anyone who has actually lost family members, or has he sought out survivors? If the answer isn't yes to all of those questions, why give him airtime? The interviewer did nothing other than provide a forum for such ignorance. Edie Falco? yes. This guy? Fuhgedaboudit!

Mar. 17 2013 06:29 PM
Tirin from Seattle

Based on my quick scan of the comments so far, it seems that the majority found Kurt to be way off base. I agree. In fact, it seems to me that it is Kurt who may need help to find his way out of the the woods. Charlie has the impudence to ask "people to question consensus reality about history" (his words) and Kurt's response is that Charlie needs to see a psychiatrist!? The soviets did the same with dissidents, except more forcefully. Kurt reached the low point of complete condescension with his smart remark "...I have to say I'm happy to hear that" (ie., that Charlie is willing to look to new evidence). Apparently Kurt has decided that he, Kurt, does not need to consider new evidence. And those who fail to fall in line need to be mocked, marginalized and put in their place - this is the tried and true tactic of all totalitarian regimes. This is not just about the Holocaust and who "owns" that word; it is about getting people to think for themselves.

Mar. 17 2013 06:19 PM
Sam Hyde from 02720


It said on the radio to go to this website and leave a comment, so here I am. I'd like to preface what I have to say by saying that I'm not any sort of neo-nazi or holocaust denier/skeptic.

That said, I thought the interviewer was a little twerp. From what I heard, the artist isn't some brazen bigot, he's just a guy who doubts the validity of a portion of history. Implying that he's mentally disabled and then, after the conversation was over and he couldn't reply, calling him a tragic case--just something about that struck me as really low. Like the words of a small man.

I think Kurt Andersen might be a small man, and that's what I logged on to say. They asked for a comment on the radio so here it is.

Mar. 17 2013 05:33 PM
Melody from Miami

In 5 years or when Mr. Kraft dies NPR will praise him as a messiah of creating your own reality constructs while selectively choosing from the known. I found the interviewer to be very narrow minded considering its NPR. NPR the church and evangestic outreach of "there's no wrong no right only what I choose". I have degree in history and grown up with wwii survivors. The facts and physical reality are not changed by his view. If you can not go on NPR deny cannot deny impact of an actual historical event with witneses and fossil record and legal documentation...where else can you go? Mr. Kraft is just a man with an opinion. Name caliing "evil" or "delusional"...really. He was right to challenge the interviewer about where to seek help though. Basically NPR sought this man out to shame embarrass or otherwise give him a tongue lashing.

Mar. 17 2013 03:57 PM
Emily from Massachusetts

I found Mr. Andersen's "diagnosis" of Mr. Krafft's mental health both objectionable and non-professional. While I do not agree with Mr. Krafft's views of the holocaust, Mr. Andersen's approach was inappropriate for a high quality journalistic interview.

Mar. 17 2013 03:37 PM
Svetlana from NYC

I found this piece to be uniquely compassionate and astonishingly honest. I did not believe you, Mr. Krafft, when you said you weren't interested in the Holocaust before. Actually, it felt like you've been consumed by it your entire life. There is a murderer and a casualty in everyone. Infection is the perfect word and denial lets it spread. You seem to be torturously exploring this, testing it out on your own hyde and the losses and experiences you are now living are an extension of your work and a reflection of what it might be like to be you. About the 2000 a day...there is a part of my mind that can't let those numbers add up either but for different reasons. I am a direct descendant of people who fought in that war, who ran from the Nazis and my maternal grandfather lost his entire first family in the I can't really take that route but I see that you can't fully either, as you've left room for revision.
For Mr. Andersen, you make a pretty good psychiatrist. The overarching theme of the holocaust is making a person into a non-person...a denial of humanity, destruction of meaning. You met Mr. Krafft's denial with acknowledgement that something might be wrong and that he may need actually affirmed him in such a way that a man who lived alone for 10 years considered your advice, even if briefly. That was a connection and that's meaningful...a fine piece of analysis right there. People pay $200 an hour for 10 years to get gems like that. This exchange is the bravest and most honest thing I've heard in a while. Mr. Krafft, everyone's pain is a credential. It's not really about The Holocaust. It's about your holocaust.

Mar. 17 2013 03:35 PM
boli atepa from Princeton Junction, NJ

He seemed confused towards the end of the interview. This is someone who definitelyn needs help. Of course, he still thinks the denial is reasonable; his greatest regret is not that, but being ostracized by his friends.

Mar. 17 2013 02:51 PM

I found Kurt's approach to this interview offensive, unprofessional, and self-aggrandizing. Sadly, due to this interview, Kraft became the sympathetic character. If 360's intention was to "find out how Mr. Kraft's recent embrace of extremism should affect our understanding of his well-known and admired body of work" -- you did none of this. Kraft defended an indefensible position while Kurt nodded and winked at his listeners as if we were all rolling our eyes along with him. Additionally,artists can take some pretty far fetched positions in experimentation but you apparently know so little about art that his process never even came up. I do not agree in any way with Kraft's opinion, but the adolescents at 360 need to grow up.

Mar. 17 2013 02:47 PM
Patrick from missouri

Kurt is the one that needs education and psychological help, not Krafft. He needs to learn what psychology is for. Kurt was clearly extremely worried that even just talking to a "holocaust denier" would taint him so he had to make it absolutely clear how oh very awful the guy is. He can't just say "you're fucked" so he throws in the thing about "getting help." Give me a break. Help? If a public stoning of Krafft was scheduled then Kurt would be there bright and early to get a good stone.

And all Krafft did was question a body count.

Mar. 17 2013 02:35 PM
david m from Massachusetts

Is the fact that as we are separated by time and distance from actual events that in the absence of evidence (whether the holocaust, Christ's resurrection, evolution) that we begin to question whether we are taught facts, myths, or outright fiction? This is no doubt compounded by the fact that much fiction and mythology is often mixed into the stories, in a proportion we cannot always discern. So we are left to accept on faith, or question everything.

Is holocaust-denial it a form of antisemitism? To the effect that you think Hitler killed only Jews, yes. If you understand the full scale of the holocaust... it becomes unimaginable. An assembly line of death. Is it really possible? For those who question whether there is such a possibility, consider Stalinist Russia. There is corroborating evidence of such a possibility, on a scale that dwarfs the evil of the German holocaust.

All Kraft has to do is ponder the imponderables, and like the rest of us, shed the arrogance we all have in thinking our own perspective which renders judgment on 'fact' or 'fiction' based on our own ability to comprehend, which might lead one to deny incontrovertible evidence.

Mar. 17 2013 02:28 PM
abe from north carolina

Mr. Krafft,
Auschwitz is a museum now. You should go there. Make a reservation for a tour in English. It will change you.

Mar. 17 2013 02:23 PM
Steve MacIntyre

Once he was off the phone with Charles Krafft, Kurt Andersen delivered to the radio audience the most patronizing summary of the artist imaginable.

Mar. 17 2013 02:21 PM
Dr. Andrew from Virginia

I was appalled by Kurt's comments to this artist and guest. It was completely inappropriate for Kurt to recommend that Charles needs a psychiatrist. When has it become the job of a journalist to give medical advice; Ridiculous, obnoxious, and very unprofessional behavior on Kurt's end.

Mar. 17 2013 02:20 PM
Sara from Oakland CA

Kurt: In the future, please know that delsuions are not 'corrected' by psychotherapy. When Mr. Kraft says he cannot imagine a psychiatrist helping him, this is yet another indication of his impaired judgment & insight. While it was admirable (and rare in traditional journalism) for you to suggest Kraft was not thinking well- you got trapped in the quicksand of the paranoid landscape when cornered by his defiant assertion that- after looking someone up in the phonebook and presenting his problem as 'doubting history'- what could a psychiatrist do ?
Kraft's framing of this, his perspective on his own mental state is a part of his muddle. A self-observing capacity is part of being fully human. His only glimmer of sound thought was his regret that his friends have distanced themselves from him; he was not brittle & defensive. Alas- he probably will deduce that they are betrayers, disloyal, persecutory, prejudiced or blind.

Mar. 17 2013 01:03 PM
Robin Kennedy from Red Hook Brooklyn

Your interview with Charles Krafft was depressing on several levels. I perceived almost instantly that the guy is a gimmick monger, not at all an artist, and this knee jerk perception was only reinforced throughout the interview. It was obvious to me that his initial appropriation of nazi iconography was a cheesy career calculation that, given the standards of today's art market, apparently served him well. When even nazi gadgetry became old hat and he recognized Holocaust Denial as the new, sexy outrage, he simply appropriated that as well. The only reassuring part of the entire interview was that this time his pathetic calculation blew up in his face. Now he whimpers about being misunderstood when he hasn't any intellectual defense for appropriating human material of such infinite sadness, pain and horror, but claims his right to use whatever he can to attract attention to himself. Even "provocation " is too big a word for his measly, self serving motivation, much less, " inspiration". Ugh. He deserves to be soundly ignored, not interviewed. Please allow this guy to sink into the rank infamy of his own making without further investigation into what is, alas, the very worst aspect of "art making".

That you followed up with the interview with Pedro Reyes kept me from hurling my radio out the window. Thank you.Now here is an appropriation Artist with a poetic fabric of artistic and social motivations and inspirations that are almost too beautiful to contemplate without tears.

Mar. 17 2013 11:56 AM
DaB from Upper West Side

Human beings are vulnerable - artists more so than most. Maybe the simultaneous adoration and struggle Mr. Kraft has felt as an artist, as he opened himself up to the world, made him susceptible to unorthodox ideas and beliefs. Artists try to see beyond what the world accepts as 'true.' Why he landed and got stuck on "Holocaust denial" I'm not sure. But I appreciate his seeming openness to continue to seek out truth.

Like you suggested, Kurt, I feel the tragedy of this man's fall.

Mar. 17 2013 11:55 AM
savti7 from Boynton Beach, FL

Charles Kraft said he is willing to change his mind if he sees hard evidence. I guess all those photographs taken by Nazi soldiers as they visited ghettos and camps (which constitute much of our evidence" are doctored in some way). Let's not forget the Nazi propaganda films made to document the Final Solution and present it all in the Museum of the Extinct Jewish Race. That must be a myth as well. I guess the fact that the German government admits the horrors and is making every effort to expose it in exhibits, museums and curriculum is not enough. I suppose the fact that my grandmother, 3 aunts, 2 uncles and 7 years old cousin disappeared July 18 1942 in Slonim, Belarus is not enough. The eye witness accounts of President Eishenhower and other liberators don't constitute proof either. I guess the cache of documents, films, files, lists, now available for scholars and anyone with a desire to search; the ITS (Internationale Tracing Service) archive in Bad Arolsen 26000 metres of documents is not enough proof for Kraft Finally, how can we believe those who survived concentration camps, work camps, death camps, slave labor camps and forests of Eastern Europe who even after 70 years still remember each day as vividly as if it was yesterday are all vicious liars. While the Shoah is an expression of the Jewish experience, the fact that more than 60 million people perished during WWII is enough evidence that Hitler and the Nazis were evil murderers and those who deny that today would likely perpetrate similar crimes ,if allowed, today

Mar. 17 2013 11:48 AM
Allen James from Brooklyn NY

Krafft is clearly stunned by what has happened in the media in recent weeks and was probably, at the very least, thoughtless, somewhat ignorant and blithely arrogant before all this attention was turned on him. He was probably commenting, through his art, on matters that he failed to examine thoroughly. Nevertheless I thought Kurt Andersen's interview was obnoxious and dripping with privilige, sarcasm and smarmy meaness. I cannot imagine what he expected to emerge from his treatment of Krafft that would enlighten us. I was embarrassed listening to it. It was a shamelessly self-indulgent piece of work on Andersen's part.

Mar. 17 2013 11:30 AM
L. Newhall from Maine

Why on earth wasn't Kraft asked the BIG question? Has he EVER visited the concentration camps in Poland, Hungary and other countries? Has he ever gone on an historical WWII journey through the nations most negatively impacted by Nazi murder? Rather than hammering him about getting therapy,a more obvious line of questions such as the above may have been more illuminating.

Mar. 17 2013 11:24 AM
Elaina from Akron

One of the first things that came to mind was the Kubler-Ross five stages of grief in facing the reality of impending death. The first stage is denial, then anger, then ... till finally acceptance. He has a few more stages to go through.

Mar. 17 2013 10:34 AM
KAREN LARRY-MOYER from Sagamore Hills, OH

I just listened to the interview - I respect the right of the artist to have his opinion, but I just found the interview tragic. He was strong in his opinion but was practically begging someone to help him change it. I can understand someone denying an event that happened 1000s of years ago when the verbal exchange was all that was available and things can get muddled in the translation but I don't understand how you can deny an event of 60-70 years ago when there are people still alive that lived through it. I do admire Kurt Anderson for presenting this disturbing interview - it does what we look to Public Radio for it challenges us, it presents unpopular viewpoints and it makes us all think.

Mar. 17 2013 10:23 AM
Chris gurin from Philadelphia, PA

Remarkable how tone-deaf Mr. Kraft appears to be. He seems genuinely perplexed by the reaction his statements have aroused. There's a remarkable lack of empathy.

Mar. 17 2013 10:23 AM
WEINBERG from Boston

I give kudos to Kurt for not attacking Charles Kraft and almost have sympathy by recommending that he seek therapy. Giving him a platform to express their views, how ever misguided gets it out in the open and ultimately will be his undoing. Like the saying goes "give them enough rope they will hang themselves".

Mar. 17 2013 09:14 AM
Leif from Washington DC

I found the interview to be disturbing in its approach. The unnacaptableness of the holocaust does not somehow make raising doubt or asking uncomfortable questions unacceptable too. The holocaust took place, in part, due to rational people who passivly accepted consensus views of Jewish people that were fundamentally wrong. Our current humanity should avoid making the same errors by not making such questioning of the accepted norm unacceptable. questioning group concensis, thoughts, opinions, or beliefs is critical to keep the historical record accurate and the 'cultural mind' agile - not unacceptable. to question nazi 'group think' when (not if) it occurs again, takes thinking outside what may be socially acceptable at the time. Very poor thought/journalistic leadership and very disappointed in your interview, Studio360/Kurt.

Mar. 17 2013 08:50 AM
Bob from Berkeley, CA

Charles Krafft didn't make a very convincing case for himself during the hard-hitting interview. But that does not, in my view, justify the interviewer's accusation that Krafft is mentally ill. Would the same accusation be made of people who deny that Obama was born in the United States or that flying saucers exist?

Mar. 17 2013 04:41 AM

Whatever you do. Please don't interview Herman Rosenblat. Thanks in advance.

Mar. 17 2013 12:16 AM
Greg from Sacramento California

I find this whole Charles Krafft Holocaust denier, story unnerving. In this show interviewed him but never asked him the question that I wanted to here the most. What has he discovered in his “investigations” that led him to this belief and why did has he decided to come out so publicly with it. I’m sorry but I was a little disappointed in Kurt Anderson's one sided interview. It ended with Kurt suggesting Krafft gets psychiatric help as apposed to hearing his side of the story. I myself am not a holocaust denier, however this story has made me think. I have always taken the holocaust at face value and never questioned it. Why is that? Because it would be so unpopular to question it? Because I wanted this horrible tragedy to be true? This comes at a point where I am reading a book called “Man’s Search For Meaning” by Viktor E. Frankl. A true story about one mans experience in Auschwitz and how he was able to survive mentally. It’s the kind of book that makes you feel like all your problems in life are minor compared to this man who lost everything and survived the one of the worst attempted genocides in history.
After reading this book It seems impossible to deny. However, I still think Charles Krafft deserves the rite to at least tell us why he has come to this conclusion. After all he has always been an artist apposed to fascism and tyranny. For those of us who admire his work, I think we deserve to know why.


Mar. 16 2013 10:07 PM

issue here isn't whether Kraft has a right to his opinion, of course he does, the issue is that he spent decades putting swastikas on his art work and telling people it's ironic, I'm just pushing buttons. Now he's saying Hitler has been "demonized". So was he making nazi propagnda all along and selling it to museums and galleries? Otherwise who cares, he's just a guy who's read some weird books, plenty of people have.

Mar. 16 2013 09:13 PM
Hugh Talman from Washington DC

Some years ago I was a photographer working for the National Archives in Washington DC. I photographed materials for the book Holocaust: The Documentary Evidence by Robert Wolfe, Henry J Gwiazda. This included photographing a canister of Zyklon B, a death book from Mauthausen Concentration Camp that listed in beautiful handwriting the simultaneous death by "heart failure" of hundreds of people on page after page, the photo album of SS-Brigadeführer Jürgen Stroop's suppression of the Warsaw Ghetto, and numerous other documents such as railroad timetables ,and orders for Zyklon B, as well as letters from people near the complaining of the smell from the furnaces. I wonder how all this evidence came to be how thousands of allied soldiers who participated in liberating the camps came to be coerced, film and physical evidence was "faked", never mind the the testimonies of the survivors. Where is the evidence of the deniers. An honest man will respond with evidence and not just opinion.

Mar. 16 2013 09:13 PM

It does not require much imagination to realize the profound courage required to disagree with any part of the current holocaust orthodoxy. The ordeal of Norman Finkelstein ought to serve as an example to those who are too dim or unempathic to grasp this. At the very least, Kurt Andersen needed to match Charles Krafft in his level of courage. It seems crazy to me ask one whom one thinks insane to evaluate himself. It is definitely crazy to hide away art that once graced the walls of Nazis, fearing it might carry the germ of Fascism. It is not crazy to doubt consensual reality, but consensus is not fact. The documented facts of the holocaust do indeed boggle the mind; they are unspeakable and unthinkable, causing in me for one, a revolt of human understanding. Something about the metrics caused Krafft to have doubts, and as an artist he could not but voice them. This is a mature artist, people, not some angry, antisocial biker! When Kurt Andersen's cowardice prevents him from going to the heart of the story, he is victimized by social taboo.
A teapot shaped like Hitler's head? If you're not laughing, you need to have your head examined!

Mar. 16 2013 07:15 PM
djone from Austria

I am a black person...have to say this!

Well I am glad this aired because if it did not I would not know about this person. But when I saw he made a Charles Manson piece that told me all I need to know about this person. He is not dumb just playing the stupid card.

Ok, he says he has been working with Neue Slowenische Kunst aka the band Laibach. Laibach has always took the piss out the concept of nationalism.
The new art is making it's own country
reminder this is only a art joke but people take it for real.

Now I have to say I have been to Slovenia, the people are super nice, not racist compared to Austria which is super racist.

Mar. 16 2013 06:58 PM
sidd from hartford, ct

As I listened to your interview of Charles Krafft and his particular interpretation of history I was taken aback by your condescension, judgment and subsequently vial indignation towards his opinion . So much so you felt his mental capacity diminished and suggested he seek psychological guidance (which is both rude and unprofessional). It seems you attacked this men with out the benefit of doubt and did no research toward his point of view.

Please allow me to elaborate. During world war two my father was at the invasion of Normandy. He subsequently was also one of the liberating forces at the Auschwitz camp. ( I have pictures to verify this). My dad has a number of patents and worked in the military hardware industry designing fuel pumps for jet engines. I mention this to illustrate his knowledge of mechanical systems and their workings. When ever the mention of concentration camps arose or when on rare occasions he felt inclined to talk of his experiences during the war my dad felt the numbers given of people killed by the gas chamber at Auschwitz to be greatly exaggerated. He felt the actual size and capacity of the building itself could not accommodate the numbers attributed to it . He felt the numbers suggested were more for impact and condemnation. My dad felt what happened at Auschwitz to be a tragedy of the gravest nature and I saw tears well in his eyes as he recanted his experience. To synopsize, there is no denying the horrific extent of the madness and murder during that sad time but perhaps the numbers have been skewed to pursue an agenda.
And you sir might do well to research before you castigate.

Mar. 16 2013 05:54 PM
Studio 360

Rex44 and others --
Kurt asked Krafft about his mental state not as an accusation against all people who hold a denial viewpoint. He asked it specifically of Krafft in the context of the change in his views in recent years. It was asked sincerely, and Krafft did not seem to take offense.

Howard --
Thanks for the article. As it happens, we had Jen Graves (the reporter of that piece) on our show a couple weeks ago to talk about her initial story for The Stranger. (that segment here:

Thanks to everyone for your thoughtful comments on and discussion of this segment.

Mar. 16 2013 05:25 PM

Walter Polt: Exactly. Krafft came up with one example of his skeptism of what may be the historical record. He should have been asked for more. And if the interviewer did not have specific knowledge of Holocaust history (I don't really either) then the interview should have been followed by an interview with a historian discussing Krafft's claims. Is there a general consensus claim of 2,000 people being gassed a day at Auschwitz, or a mere 1,000? How many a day dropped dead from malnutrition and typhus? How do the numbers add up for other concentration camps? On this one point (out of a ton of other evidence) I'm sure that historians have done the math on capacity of gas chambers and ovens and analysis of the records kept by the Nazis and all that, particularly given that to my very limited knowledge of Holocaust deniers or minimizers this is the sort of stuff they claim. Or that the ovens weren't designed to burn bodies or whatever. Maybe the interviewer should have read a book or two about Holocaust denial. A quick search on Amazon came up with about ten of them.

The suggestion and discussion by the interviewer about Krafft's mental health was an inappropriate waste of time. If Holocaust denial (or evolution denial or global warming denial) is a result of mental problems (and in the broad view, they can to a degree be seen as such) then a significant per centage of Americans are in need of help. Even just counting Holocaust deniers and minimizers would no doubt come up with significant numbers.

Mar. 16 2013 05:18 PM

All viewpoints and ideas must be allowed in a discussion, not just the accepted ones. Dogma rarely leads to enlightenment. In fact it usually leads to someones despair eventually.

Mar. 16 2013 05:08 PM

Using Explorer all comments here show 0/0 and when I try a thumbs up or down - after signing in which is confirmed at the top, nothing happens.

Mar. 16 2013 04:57 PM
Howard from New York

Who skipped doing the research to prep for the interview? Charles has a decade of readily available podcasts, material on his Facebook page, interviews, etc. that make clear his "White Nationalist (his term) views. For a list see
Holocaust denial is simply one aspect of his world view. As to his personal views and his art, other than some buyers and gallery owners who might choose not to deal with him, who cares? Degas was a terrible anti-semite; his dancers are sublime.

Mar. 16 2013 04:32 PM
Jocelyn from Brooklyn

I'm just listening to this now, and have not read previous comments. He sounds defensive and whiny, and like he's back pedaling. Kurt, I wished you had pushed him more on his evidence that the Holocaust did not happen. When he expressed his sympathetic view of Hitler you should have asked, for example, what about the nuremburg laws, which are not in dispute. You pity him, but he ihas enjoyed an illustrious career. It's okay for him to squirm now a bit. I don't know his work. In fact I've never heard of him. Now that a lauded artist is a holocaust denier, he should be shunned. No, it's not a crime to deny the holocaust, but that doesn't mean we have pay attention to it. When the interview began I wondered why this even deserved air time. I'm being a little facetious here. I know, it's an arts show, but it would have been more worthwhile if I got any sense of the rigor he brought to his change of heart.

Mar. 16 2013 04:30 PM

Just heard your program. I'm amazed that you automatically assume this artist is deluded. I don't know his art, so I don't know how offensive or what kind of/to what degree he is a 'holocaust denier'. But the only detail you provide is him saying he doubts that it is technically possible for the nazis to have killed 2000 jews per day. I studied German and lived in Bavaria for 4 summers and I never felt comfortable (there or here) saying that it seems to me fairly hyperbolic to say that the nazis killed 6 million jews. Any more than I just washed 400 dishes or my kids nagged me 100 times to go see a movie or that it's been snowing for a month. But, turns out, it's illegal to even question the 6 million number. And I get scared (and skeptical!) when you tell me I can't even question something.

The otherwise reasonable and balanced Kurt Anderson's patronizing, categorical, dismissal of this artist makes me equally skeptical.

Mar. 16 2013 04:25 PM
Alice Diamond from Boulder, CO

Regarding the interview w/artist turned Holocaust denier: I am not a denier and I am also Jewish but I would have liked to hear more about his reasons for denial. He only mentioned that it didn't make technological sense that 2000 people were destroyed per day. Is that his only criteria for denial? If so, isn't it easy enough to address that? Does he deny the entire Holocaust, does he deny the stories of individual people or just the numbers? Of course I can Google these questions, but I would have liked to learn more in the interview.

Mar. 16 2013 04:24 PM
Gayle Madeira from New York, NY

Quote: "Krafft’s public embrace of Holocaust denial is likely to wreck his career as a respected artist" and it should. No sane person or group should give this man any attention, support or recognition. I don't think this interview should have even happened.

Mar. 16 2013 04:18 PM
Chinyere Neale from Southeast Michigan

I was listening to the story about the artist, Charlie Kraft, who is a Holocaust denier. He did not sound very convincing as a person willing to be persuaded otherwise, by the way. But my comment pertains to the many U.S. citizens who continue to be deniers of the horrors of slavery and the genocide of the native peoples of this country. And to be fair, people don't outright deny these two phenomena which are responsible for all the original (and much of the enduring) wealth generated in the U.S. by European descendents, but they certainly treat it like something that did not have a extreme and lasting impact on thousands of citizens who have not yet totally recovered from these crimes. Or they remind you that "that was another time" or "it was within the law then" as if an unjust legal environment made okay these extremely inhumane practices. It seems people are not willing to be honest about bad things from which they personally benefited. And even the most liberal people are not willing to do anything that might be corrective if it might jeopardize their own privilege. Afterall, they tell themselves, we are a "post racial" America and no longer need voting rights acts or affirmative action programs or anything else that might be designed to offer minor relief to the disadvantaged because they perceive that THEY might lose something.

Mar. 16 2013 03:48 PM

Some interesting threads here. The people who are praising Kraft for being "open minded", he is entitled to his opinion -- well, he is, but you're being a little naive. The people who buy this "revisionist" stuff, they're down the line antisemites, white supremacists who are mad that Germany got a bad name in WW2. It's "the HOlocaust is a myth manufactured by a Jewish conspiracy." Take a look for the White websites where Kraft has appeared, these are people with an agenda.
Why is "Holocaustianity" the American religion? It's because WW2 was our shining moment. We kicked the a-- of a bad regime, rebuilt Europe, saved some innocent victims from the camps. It lets us forget about the victims of our own genocide against the Indians, who never got the reparations they deserve and still live in some of the crappiest places in the USA. So maybe we should stop talking about the Holocaust so much and learn some other history.

Mar. 16 2013 02:27 PM
Ugo from New Jersey

Can someone tell me why the act of denying (or questioning)the holocaust is a crime? Many thousands of Native Americans were murdered with biological weapons- gifted small-pox infested blankets, yet this fact is denied in main stream America, and kids are thought that the pilgrims ate thanksgiving dinner with the Natives. No one gets press attention for denying the Native American Holocaust, why do we bother giving someone publicity simply because he is not yet convinced that millions of Jews were murdered under Hitler? And why is it a crime to deny the facts? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no matter how wrong they might be (freedom of speech). This guy simply has an opinion on the Jewish holocaust that is contrary to popular opinion; he simply refuses to acknowledge whatever evidence is out there. The same way most Americans deny the Native American holocaust.

Mar. 16 2013 01:45 PM
Roman Kozak from Omaha

I found the interview disappointing. We never did learn what Mr. Krafft believes and what he is unsure of, or why.
The whole exchange concerning mental health was absurd and out of place.
I applaud Mr. Krafft in his courage at saying that he is willing to be convinced by evidence, and not by social pressure.
We should all have minds that examine and are open to evidence.
The Nazi Genocide is to some extent misrepresented, starting with the body count. One constantly hears that 6 million people were killed.
In fact it was 11 million, but for some reason the non-jews are seldom mentioned.
One also rarely hears that Stalin and Mao each had a much higher body count and much worse reigns of terror than Hitler.

Mar. 16 2013 01:29 PM

I am dismayed at anyone believing that the magnitude of the Holocaust can be questioned. I ask Mr. Kraft to read the NY Times article of March 1, 2013 which reports that 42,500 ghettos and camps have been cataloged in Europe. This is more than anyone had imagined.

Mar. 16 2013 01:29 PM
John from Boston

Courageous interview in my opinion. I try to keep in mind that genocide is a quality of human behavior which we all need to acknowledge. Denial of any genocide only adds to the likelihood of it occuring again.

Mar. 16 2013 12:44 PM

I'm in physics grad school. And some of the things that I learn, people don't always believe. For me the facts are indisputable. But if I try to tell others that you can create a particle for a short time out of nothing, they think it's bull ----. But I know that this is a calculable and measurable phenomenon. You might think that this is some odd case, and that the holocaust is something that everyone should know of. So, what about evolution? I have met "scientists" who don't believe in evolution. And I didn't tell them that they needed help, medically. I disagree with Krafft's views, but he is entitled to believe that he has received insufficient information to justify belief.

Mar. 16 2013 12:41 PM
Catherine Daily from Rhode Island

Kurt Anderson seems to have been brave enough to address the issue of mental illness with Mr. Krafft. Hopefully Mr. Krafft will take Kurt's advice and seek out a neurologist. To me, Mr. Krafft's perplexed reply .. "Do you think I need some sort of psychiatric help" could be an admission on his part that something may be medically wrong.

Mar. 16 2013 12:38 PM
JYH from USA

It's recent enough, I understand people are sensitive to the topic, but to act like a person's state of being unconvinced of some particular element of history amounts to a character flaw is too simple; and to say that because of these doubts he deserves to be stricken from the record, or "consigned to the dustbin," or whatever, is too simple.

Mar. 16 2013 10:34 AM
Evelyn Yaari from Bala Cynwyd, PA

Please pass along to Mr. Krafft a suggestion that he see the recent 60 Minutes piece on the immense German archive that documents the "Final Solution" in excrutiating detail. If he is sincere in his desire to research the history of the Holocaust, the newly available archives contain more than enough compelling evidence. Many listeners apparently found the interview offensive. I found it illuminating to hear first-hand from someone who has decided to be fiercely skeptical and to take a revisionist view of the Holocaust. I trust Mr. Krafft to stay on his quest and ultimately evolve to recognize the truth. He seemed open to that possibility.

Mar. 16 2013 10:23 AM
Christian from Philly from Philadelphia

Freedom of expression is important but freedom of expression from a mind sick or injured through abuse is still an illness that requires treatment. We should not pretend otherwise. I understand more and more why this topic needs to be discussed and remain on our consciousness long after the survivors are no longer here to tell their life experiences.

Mar. 16 2013 07:33 AM
Kh from Philly

I thought the article was really great, and the subject is really hard. To piggy back on Kurt Anderson's comment about seeing a psychiatrist, maybe Mr. Krafft could find a Jewish, Polish, German etc. psychiatrist.

Mar. 16 2013 07:22 AM

Not a lot of context. I wasn't clear on which holocaust was under discussion here. Ukrainian, Armenian, Rwandan?

Mar. 16 2013 12:51 AM

Have met Mr. Krafft. He is an articulate, charismatic man. But he has misrepresented himself, until now, and he has left his audience behind. It was painful to hear the sadness and confusion in his voice. Mr. Andersen did a great job with a difficult subject, as did Ms. Graves at The Stranger.

Mar. 15 2013 05:17 PM
Free Thought

The interviewer stuck to the official talking points and will not be in any danger of losing his job. All in all a disgusting display of cowardice. But not because of Charles Krafft's opinions. Why is someone automatically "mentally ill and deluded" for holding an unpopular view of historical events? The United States has truly forgotten the meaning of free inquiry and is going the route of the Iron Curtain.

What exactly is wrong with questioning the details of an historical event? People question other historical events freely. There is no witch hunt when old Communists deny the Holodomor. No one seems to care too much about the tens of millions who were killed by Communists at all. Picasso was a Stalin-lover, yet the "tolerant" art world seems fine with that. People are still disputing the numbers of the Ukrainian genocide. The phrase "Holodomor denier" does not exist. Is Noam Chomsky a "Killing Fields denier" because he questions the numbers of deaths under the Pol Pot regime? Will you hound Noam Chomsky out of his job? Turks in general do not acknowledge the Armenian genocide. Should we hound all Turks and pillory any Turk who doesn't believe the official history?

Why was I forced as a child to take a field trip to the Holocaust museum? Why is the number "6 million" crammed down my throat at all times? I don't even know the number of Americans who died in WW2. What happened to the Jews in Europe was a tragedy, but what does it have to do with me in 2013? I'm tired of hearing about it. It's all about indoctrination. We don't treat any other tragedy this way. The Holocaust is only as significant to me as the genocides against the Ukrainians, the Armenians, the Rwandans, the Congolese, the Vietnamese, the Cambodians, the American Indians, and the Slavs. But in order to understand the exact nature of these tragedies we need to be able to discuss them freely. There is only one historical event that is not allowed to be debated. It is clear to me that Holocaustianity is the new religion of the United States and anyone who asks questions about it is branded a heretic.

Mar. 15 2013 03:42 PM
Marcia from Cleveland

This was a disturbing interview, not because of the denial garbage, I'm not even going to give that any consideration, but because Krafft simply sounds terribly mentally ill. In fact he sounds what I refer to as "soulsick." I heard such a desperation and emptiness in Krafft's remarks that by the end of the interview I simply found him to be unfathomably, profoundly pathetic.

Mar. 15 2013 03:12 PM
Studio 360

Walter -- We didn't bring Krafft on the show to offer him a platform for the many distortions and falsehoods he's read in Holocaust revisionist literature. It wasn't our intention to talk to him as a spokesperson for that movement, but as a prominent artist whose work has taken on vastly different meanings given these new beliefs. (You can find Krafft talk at great length about how he came to his views on websites that espouse those viewpoints.)

Mar. 15 2013 02:57 PM
Stephen from North Carolina

First, and most practically, I urge Mr. Kraft to continue his 'intellectual investigation' by watching the film, Shoah.
Second: in the Episcopal Church, I was taught that faith is tempered by inquiry. It may not be an awful thing to allow the questions of dogma someone has to rise to the surface and give rise to investigation; otherwise, such doubt may never vanish. Holocaust questions, as unreasonable and uninformed as they were, were part of the drive to produce Mr. Spielberg's film. It's one thing when and if Mr. Kraft and others have a sincere openmindedness and will accept, preferably seek, incontrovertible evidence. I hope he is sincere. Sincerely.
This is different from Holocaust-denier/conspiracy theorists, who simply have no understanding of what constitutes proof, and cannot by any means be dissuaded.

Mar. 15 2013 02:34 PM
Studio 360

Michael and others --
As Kurt states at the end of the audio posted above, he considers Krafft to be a deluded believer in horrific lies giving aid and comfort to the worst hate groups. Given Krafft's wide acceptance and popularity in the art world, we felt it important to confront him about his newly revealed extremist viewpoints -- even though they are deeply disturbing and upsetting.

Mar. 15 2013 01:41 PM
Walter Polt from 87102

Kurt, you let Krafft generically question the Holocaust and Hitler's nastiness. Please tell me why you didn't ask him specifically what he does see and think? What does he think happened at Auschwitz etc.? What does he think of Hitler? The devil is in the details. You really blew that opportunity to get information. (Glad you suggested a shrink, though.)

Mar. 15 2013 01:29 PM
Tony from Colorado

The problem with labeling someone as "evil" is that in doing so we turn them into inhuman caricatures - we make them unreal. Then we interview this "evil" person & learn that, like us, he has emotions and vulnerabilities and is subject to error and confusion - just like us! He is human after all! But so what? Krafft is an admitted Holocaust denier and probably a Nazi sympathizer. The fact that he is saddened by the rejection of once close friends shouldn't make him or his art any more tolerable. & The fact that he embraces the characterization of his work as "ironic" simply indicates that the term is too often used as a synonym for silly & lighthearted. I'm sure that similar goofy kitsch was made by dyed-in-the-wool National Socialists back in the early 40's.

Mar. 15 2013 01:14 PM
michael bersin from long beach, ny 11561

wrote earlier and have now reviewed other comments and am AMAZED that i hear no outrage.............threaten support and you will get their attention just like the politicians.

to give voice to this despite STUDIO 360 justification is utterly reprehensible and as stated earlier, am sure that giving a pulpit to this is financially motivated.

i welcome an intelligent conversation with someone from WNYC who insists on justifying this travesty

Mar. 15 2013 12:33 PM
George Glanzman from Seattle

This "artist" is along with Kara Walker a celebrity of shock. In radio we have Howard Stern, in television we have Glen Beck, in right wing book writers we have Ann Coulter. Some people say or show crazy things to put themselves in a spotlight when their talent may not be strong enough. This separates them from the crowd. Also, please remember that the person creating something is living in solitary confinement until the moment of revealing their work. Any person who creates will see the public's reaction to their stuff and either make more of it or quit making that kind of work. Maybe Kurt should interview those people who bought Mr. Krafft's work with the same tenacity.

Mar. 15 2013 12:08 PM
Tirza Wahrman from Princeton Junction, New Jersey

Sadly, Holocaust denial of the kind that Mr. Krafft engages in has been a cottage industry dating back to the very time that Jews were humiliated and slaughtered in virtually every corner of Nazi-occupied Europe. My late father, Henry Wahrman, was a survivor. His reminiscences about his harrowing days in the Flossenburg concentration camp are described in a book by Lawrence Powell, Troubled Memory: Anne Levy, The Holocaust and David Duke's Louisiana. My dad describes being marched with his younger brother through the local streets of the town. He said: "They used to march us from the camp to the Messerschmidt factory in Mittereich...On Sundays, when we used to see people go to church, they saw us horrible creatures walking in those rags and in prison attire. Some of us were shoeless, barely able to walk or march. But after the liberation, the local Germans said they never knew such a thing took place. At Flossenburg, they were burning people twenty four hours a day, yet they denied they ever heard or knew anything. It was really unbelievable." Powell, at page 345. In his comments heard this morning, Mr. Krafft joins a long tradition. It is up to the rest of us to stand up for the historical truth of this cataclysm.

Mar. 15 2013 11:27 AM
meg davenport

It was fascinating to hear him say things that seemed out of "kilter" To hear him talk showing a vulnerable side reveals that we all have weaknesses in our foundations. I had heard the interview a few weeks ago.
I was inspired that he left himself open and asked for help and references and seemed genuine. This is a great story of someone revealing their thinking and maybe leaving themselves open to changing and evolving it!
Would that we could all mirror each other and move out thinking along! Thanks!

Mar. 15 2013 11:24 AM
nk from Chelsea

Never heard of this "artist" before, so to hear it reported on the morning news segment that he was a holocaust denier was insulting AND annoying, and a seeming non-sequitor. The short piece had no context. The things this man said were inane and disgusting. Why was this even aired?

Even with more context, it seems to me that once a public figure starts talking this kind of rubbish, he doesn't deserve a platform on public media.

Mar. 15 2013 11:13 AM
Deb from ny

When you give voice to someone that says it is not technically possible to murder so many in Auschwitz -- you give thoughts to those that are uneducated and do not know, and plant thoughts that this may be true. Why must I hear his uneducated, ridiculous viewpoint on NYC public. radio

Mar. 15 2013 10:43 AM
KartaPurkh Khalsa from Kansas City, MO

I would be interested in what other historical events Mr Krafft and his fellow deniers also deny. Does he think the Inquisition never happened or that the Crusades are a myth dreamed up by anti-Catholic conspirators? Perhaps the Civil War is a figment of Lincoln's admiring biographers. Did George Washington REALLY exist and are all of our constitutional rights only imagined by Anton Scalia and Felix Frankfurter? I'm not sure whether denial is available to us all or only to a select few.

Mar. 15 2013 09:43 AM
Studio 360

Andrew and others -- It was not our intention to debate with Charles Krafft the historical account of the Holocaust. We spoke with him as an artist of repute, and not as a representative of the Holocaust denial viewpoint. Our intention was to find out how Mr. Krafft's recent embrace of extremism should affect our understanding of his well-known and admired body of work.

Bruce, Dan, and others -- Krafft's story has been significantly in the news since an article last month. Given wide interest in the topic, and Krafft's significance as a contemporary artist, we felt it was important to confront him directly about how his extremist views have damaged the integrity of his body of artwork. Most listeners will find his views disturbing and unpleasant, but we feel they are important to discuss in order to understand that work.

Mar. 15 2013 09:14 AM
Dan Gottfried from NY

It is extremely disturbing that opinions are treated as though they are equal in weight to well-established facts. As journalists, you should be challenging a person like Mr. Kraft if you choose to cover his "story". As to the choice to give him air time, it deeply saddens me that you chose to do so and brings into question for me whether or not your station is responsible and sensitive in the choices you make.

Mar. 15 2013 09:04 AM

If he needs proof of the holocaust, maybe he should go pay my parents a visit - my 90 year old Mom, and my 93 year old Dad are both SURVIVORS!!!

Mar. 15 2013 08:21 AM

What a nut!!! I listened this morning with my mouth agape in shock! How can anybody believe that the Holocaust DIDN'T happen??? My grandparents were put into camps in Siberia during that time and much of my grandfather's family was killed. I am shocked and angered.

Mar. 15 2013 07:50 AM
michael bersin from long beach, ny

you have finally done it!
after listening to your guest, i decided the 1st thing i will do today is cancel any support for WNYC. am sure that your motivation to run this ????? was financially motivated and i want no part of anyone/thing that can rationalize giving this hatred motivated theme a voice.
i am appalled that you have lowered the status of this previously wonderful expression of passion, intelligence and "breath of fresh air" to this level.
hope that you can "wriggle out of this one" because you really DID make a difference.

Mar. 15 2013 07:44 AM
Andrew Meyers from Bronx, NY

How can anyone who chooses to comment about the Holocaust have the temerity to do no research? What kind of a person can so cavalierly dismiss the suffering of millions, both living and dead? If you comment on an atrocity that affected millions, you have the obligation to at least read. It does not take much effort to find the conclusive evidence of the Holocaust and of the atrocities of the Nazis. Anyone who chooses to overlook this evidence is malicious or demented and cannot take refuge in "challenging consensus" or in postmodern relativism. As an art historian, I am averse to judging the quality of art in the basis of the political or personal views of the artist, but there are deal-breakers which make it impossible to appreciate the art. This is certainly one of them.

Mar. 15 2013 07:38 AM
Bruce Egert from New Jersey

Why would you give even 5 seconds, much less 5 minutes, to a meaningless interview with a Holocaust denier? His statements were the same tired, old gibberish that adds nothing to the discussion. People like him have to be assigned to the dustbin of history rather than the airwaves or radio.

Mar. 15 2013 07:33 AM
Deb from NY

I really did not need to wake up to listen to this jerk this morning. Trying to intellectualize the Holocaust. Hitler has been demonized? Why interview him, because he is an artist? Why insult my family, and the family of others, to listen to him on a station I respected. How disappointing in NPR and NYC to play this.

Mar. 15 2013 07:32 AM
shane from seattle

He said,,,"i think hitler has been demonized",,,,lol . This guy is a forrest hermit for sure!! I think he's practising for a standup comedy act!!

Mar. 14 2013 07:39 PM
David from Studio 360

Paul -- Thank you for the clarification. Kurt said "a Seattle weekly," rather than "The Seattle Weekly." I certainly see why there would be confusion. Jen Graves' article is correctly cited above.

Mar. 14 2013 04:43 PM
Paul Mullin from Seattle


Mar. 14 2013 04:35 PM